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	<title>Comments on: PPS: Putting the Cart Before the Horse</title>
	<atom:link href="http://morehockeylesswar.org/blog/archive/2008/01/23/pps_putting_the_cart_before_the_horse/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://morehockeylesswar.org/blog/archive/2008/01/23/pps_putting_the_cart_before_the_horse/</link>
	<description>Peace, Justice and Hockey</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 15:26:35 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5</generator>
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		<title>By: Neisha</title>
		<link>http://morehockeylesswar.org/blog/archive/2008/01/23/pps_putting_the_cart_before_the_horse/#comment-16392</link>
		<dc:creator>Neisha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 02:17:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morehockeylesswar.org/blog/archive/2008/01/23/pps_putting_the_cart_before_the_horse/#comment-16392</guid>
		<description>Exactly!  (On all your points.)  Let's move over to the new forum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly!  (On all your points.)  Let&#8217;s move over to the new forum.</p>
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		<title>By: Zarwen</title>
		<link>http://morehockeylesswar.org/blog/archive/2008/01/23/pps_putting_the_cart_before_the_horse/#comment-16390</link>
		<dc:creator>Zarwen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 01:25:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morehockeylesswar.org/blog/archive/2008/01/23/pps_putting_the_cart_before_the_horse/#comment-16390</guid>
		<description>No wonder the situation had gotten out of control.  70 kindergarten transfers is inexcusable.  That is 3 full classes!  Or 51 (= 2 classes), or 26 (= 1 class).  

But the reason they are still "bursting at the seams" is that those children are still there, having progressed to the upper grades now.  The reason for higher enrollment in the younger grades is that their catchment areas have increased and they cannot turn away anyone from the new catchment area.  So now they are down to Hobson's choice regarding any more in-transfers.

Neisha, if you (or anyone else) wishes to continue this dialog, perhaps we should do it at Steve's new blog.  I could meet you on the Grant cluster thread or in the "Open Lounge."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No wonder the situation had gotten out of control.  70 kindergarten transfers is inexcusable.  That is 3 full classes!  Or 51 (= 2 classes), or 26 (= 1 class).  </p>
<p>But the reason they are still &#8220;bursting at the seams&#8221; is that those children are still there, having progressed to the upper grades now.  The reason for higher enrollment in the younger grades is that their catchment areas have increased and they cannot turn away anyone from the new catchment area.  So now they are down to Hobson&#8217;s choice regarding any more in-transfers.</p>
<p>Neisha, if you (or anyone else) wishes to continue this dialog, perhaps we should do it at Steve&#8217;s new blog.  I could meet you on the Grant cluster thread or in the &#8220;Open Lounge.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Neisha</title>
		<link>http://morehockeylesswar.org/blog/archive/2008/01/23/pps_putting_the_cart_before_the_horse/#comment-16389</link>
		<dc:creator>Neisha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 00:29:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morehockeylesswar.org/blog/archive/2008/01/23/pps_putting_the_cart_before_the_horse/#comment-16389</guid>
		<description>Now, compare that with 2004-2005 in which Alameda took 70 kindergarten transfers, Irvington took 51, and Laurelhurst took 26.  (Hollyrood only took 3, but they have always had space issues.)  I

Interesting, eh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now, compare that with 2004-2005 in which Alameda took 70 kindergarten transfers, Irvington took 51, and Laurelhurst took 26.  (Hollyrood only took 3, but they have always had space issues.)  I</p>
<p>Interesting, eh?</p>
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		<title>By: Neisha</title>
		<link>http://morehockeylesswar.org/blog/archive/2008/01/23/pps_putting_the_cart_before_the_horse/#comment-16388</link>
		<dc:creator>Neisha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 00:18:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morehockeylesswar.org/blog/archive/2008/01/23/pps_putting_the_cart_before_the_horse/#comment-16388</guid>
		<description>Zarwen:  You're absolutely right wrt upper grades in Grant cluster schools, they used to take loads of transfers.  But, according to this PPS link, over the past couple of years transfer slots have pretty much dried up at the kindergarten level and schools are still bursting at the seams:

 http://enrollment.pps.k12.or.us/.docs/pg/11815

Last year Alameda took 8 kindergarten transfers, Hollyrood-Fernwood took 5, Irvington took 1, and Laurehurst took 3.  (I'm guessing those were all sibling transfers.)  And all those schools still had large kindergarten classes.   I think it's just that enrollment is up in the earlier grades.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zarwen:  You&#8217;re absolutely right wrt upper grades in Grant cluster schools, they used to take loads of transfers.  But, according to this PPS link, over the past couple of years transfer slots have pretty much dried up at the kindergarten level and schools are still bursting at the seams:</p>
<p> <a href="http://enrollment.pps.k12.or.us/.docs/pg/11815" rel="nofollow">http://enrollment.pps.k12.or.us/.docs/pg/11815</a></p>
<p>Last year Alameda took 8 kindergarten transfers, Hollyrood-Fernwood took 5, Irvington took 1, and Laurehurst took 3.  (I&#8217;m guessing those were all sibling transfers.)  And all those schools still had large kindergarten classes.   I think it&#8217;s just that enrollment is up in the earlier grades.</p>
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		<title>By: Zarwen</title>
		<link>http://morehockeylesswar.org/blog/archive/2008/01/23/pps_putting_the_cart_before_the_horse/#comment-16385</link>
		<dc:creator>Zarwen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 23:03:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morehockeylesswar.org/blog/archive/2008/01/23/pps_putting_the_cart_before_the_horse/#comment-16385</guid>
		<description>Neisha,

Just FYI, PPS reports Alameda's enrollment at 697, 199 of whom are from "OTHER NEIGHBORHOODS."   Although, I am unclear on what they consider "other neighborhoods" now that they have had to absorb part of RCP's former catchment area.

Nevertheless, it seems that they could solve their problem easily enough by just stopping or limiting the in-transfers!  Same with Hollyrood-Fernwood and Laurelhurst.  

This may be a good thing for neighborhood schools in the long run, or it may just send more folks to magnets, charters, private and home schools.  I expect the latter, based on anecdotal information I have heard about families who have tried to transfer OUT of overcrowded "neighborhood schools" into closer schools with more room, and been refused.  Dealing with that kind of bureaucracy pisses people off and then they vote with their feet.  PPS has lost literally hundreds of families because of it; probably a couple of schools' worth!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neisha,</p>
<p>Just FYI, PPS reports Alameda&#8217;s enrollment at 697, 199 of whom are from &#8220;OTHER NEIGHBORHOODS.&#8221;   Although, I am unclear on what they consider &#8220;other neighborhoods&#8221; now that they have had to absorb part of RCP&#8217;s former catchment area.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, it seems that they could solve their problem easily enough by just stopping or limiting the in-transfers!  Same with Hollyrood-Fernwood and Laurelhurst.  </p>
<p>This may be a good thing for neighborhood schools in the long run, or it may just send more folks to magnets, charters, private and home schools.  I expect the latter, based on anecdotal information I have heard about families who have tried to transfer OUT of overcrowded &#8220;neighborhood schools&#8221; into closer schools with more room, and been refused.  Dealing with that kind of bureaucracy pisses people off and then they vote with their feet.  PPS has lost literally hundreds of families because of it; probably a couple of schools&#8217; worth!</p>
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		<title>By: Neisha</title>
		<link>http://morehockeylesswar.org/blog/archive/2008/01/23/pps_putting_the_cart_before_the_horse/#comment-16378</link>
		<dc:creator>Neisha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 18:52:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morehockeylesswar.org/blog/archive/2008/01/23/pps_putting_the_cart_before_the_horse/#comment-16378</guid>
		<description>Oops!  I meant 2007-2008.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops!  I meant 2007-2008.</p>
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		<title>By: Neisha</title>
		<link>http://morehockeylesswar.org/blog/archive/2008/01/23/pps_putting_the_cart_before_the_horse/#comment-16377</link>
		<dc:creator>Neisha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 18:51:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morehockeylesswar.org/blog/archive/2008/01/23/pps_putting_the_cart_before_the_horse/#comment-16377</guid>
		<description>Steve, I apologize for continuing this conversation here.  

Zarwen, I just looked at the "Transfer Slots and Applicants" document for 2006-2007 and Beaumont's applicants still exceeded slots 6th, 7th and 8th.  So, I guess they are still doing OK.  They had 75 slots at 6th grade and 93 applicants.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, I apologize for continuing this conversation here.  </p>
<p>Zarwen, I just looked at the &#8220;Transfer Slots and Applicants&#8221; document for 2006-2007 and Beaumont&#8217;s applicants still exceeded slots 6th, 7th and 8th.  So, I guess they are still doing OK.  They had 75 slots at 6th grade and 93 applicants.</p>
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		<title>By: Neisha</title>
		<link>http://morehockeylesswar.org/blog/archive/2008/01/23/pps_putting_the_cart_before_the_horse/#comment-16376</link>
		<dc:creator>Neisha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 18:35:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morehockeylesswar.org/blog/archive/2008/01/23/pps_putting_the_cart_before_the_horse/#comment-16376</guid>
		<description>Gosh, it's even more complicated in inner SE than I thought!

I think it's been really tough on Beaumont.  In addition to losing Sabin and Boise-Eliot as official feeders, they have also lost Meek and RCP as unofficial feeders.  Plus, they get stiff competition from Da Vinci.  

In the meantime, Alameda is bursting at the seams.  There are over 700 kids right now.  In 2005 and 2006 there was likely only room for sibling transfers in kindergarten and last year I understand they couldn't take all siblings.  It will be interesting to see if there will be any transfers at all this year.  The first grade class has 125 kids and this year's kindergarten class is larger than last year's kindergarten class.  Last year the foundation raised enough money for a fifth first grade teacher, but there isn't enough space for five sections of second grade and the school still needs five sections of first grade.  So, there may be four sections of around 35 kids in second grade next year?  The principal has been creative with space before, so she may think of a way out of this. 

Since Alameda needs space and Beaumont has space, the principals have been talking to the district about merging the schools into a mega K-8 and moving the fifth grade to Beaumont.  Last I heard, the district wants to see how the rest of the K-8 rollout works and there will be no potential changes to Alameda or Beaumont until 2010 at the earliest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gosh, it&#8217;s even more complicated in inner SE than I thought!</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s been really tough on Beaumont.  In addition to losing Sabin and Boise-Eliot as official feeders, they have also lost Meek and RCP as unofficial feeders.  Plus, they get stiff competition from Da Vinci.  </p>
<p>In the meantime, Alameda is bursting at the seams.  There are over 700 kids right now.  In 2005 and 2006 there was likely only room for sibling transfers in kindergarten and last year I understand they couldn&#8217;t take all siblings.  It will be interesting to see if there will be any transfers at all this year.  The first grade class has 125 kids and this year&#8217;s kindergarten class is larger than last year&#8217;s kindergarten class.  Last year the foundation raised enough money for a fifth first grade teacher, but there isn&#8217;t enough space for five sections of second grade and the school still needs five sections of first grade.  So, there may be four sections of around 35 kids in second grade next year?  The principal has been creative with space before, so she may think of a way out of this. </p>
<p>Since Alameda needs space and Beaumont has space, the principals have been talking to the district about merging the schools into a mega K-8 and moving the fifth grade to Beaumont.  Last I heard, the district wants to see how the rest of the K-8 rollout works and there will be no potential changes to Alameda or Beaumont until 2010 at the earliest.</p>
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		<title>By: Zarwen</title>
		<link>http://morehockeylesswar.org/blog/archive/2008/01/23/pps_putting_the_cart_before_the_horse/#comment-16365</link>
		<dc:creator>Zarwen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 03:26:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morehockeylesswar.org/blog/archive/2008/01/23/pps_putting_the_cart_before_the_horse/#comment-16365</guid>
		<description>Neisha,

You are mostly correct, but Hosford actually feeds to both Cleveland and Franklin, because the Woodstock neighborhood kids now are assigned to Hosford and then back to Franklin, as their high school assignment did not change even though their middle school is in a different cluster.  I am assuming this strange feeder pattern was put in place because bus service to Hosford was already established for the Chinese immersion kids; neither Hosford nor Mt. Tabor is close to Woodstock at all.  Lastly, the Japanese Immersion portion of Mt. Tabor feeds to Grant, not Franklin.  

In view of the World Languages Program that you mentioned, it would seem to make sense to relocate the Japanese program from Grant to Franklin, and the Spanish and Chinese programs from Cleveland to Franklin, especially as Atkinson, Woodstock, Richmond and Mt. Tabor are in the Franklin cluster anyway.  Would help balance the enrollment among those three high schools as well.

With all this confusion, wouldn't it just have been simpler to keep Kellogg open???  Or at least assign Woodstock to Lane, which is only half the distance away and has been losing enrollment steadily?

I live in Grant cluster, so I was aware that Beaumont is the last remaining middle school there and I had been wondering how they would fill their building now that they are down to one feeder.  I am waiting to see how the district will "solve" this one.  With something really stupid, I am sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neisha,</p>
<p>You are mostly correct, but Hosford actually feeds to both Cleveland and Franklin, because the Woodstock neighborhood kids now are assigned to Hosford and then back to Franklin, as their high school assignment did not change even though their middle school is in a different cluster.  I am assuming this strange feeder pattern was put in place because bus service to Hosford was already established for the Chinese immersion kids; neither Hosford nor Mt. Tabor is close to Woodstock at all.  Lastly, the Japanese Immersion portion of Mt. Tabor feeds to Grant, not Franklin.  </p>
<p>In view of the World Languages Program that you mentioned, it would seem to make sense to relocate the Japanese program from Grant to Franklin, and the Spanish and Chinese programs from Cleveland to Franklin, especially as Atkinson, Woodstock, Richmond and Mt. Tabor are in the Franklin cluster anyway.  Would help balance the enrollment among those three high schools as well.</p>
<p>With all this confusion, wouldn&#8217;t it just have been simpler to keep Kellogg open???  Or at least assign Woodstock to Lane, which is only half the distance away and has been losing enrollment steadily?</p>
<p>I live in Grant cluster, so I was aware that Beaumont is the last remaining middle school there and I had been wondering how they would fill their building now that they are down to one feeder.  I am waiting to see how the district will &#8220;solve&#8221; this one.  With something really stupid, I am sure.</p>
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		<title>By: Neisha</title>
		<link>http://morehockeylesswar.org/blog/archive/2008/01/23/pps_putting_the_cart_before_the_horse/#comment-16361</link>
		<dc:creator>Neisha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 00:57:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://morehockeylesswar.org/blog/archive/2008/01/23/pps_putting_the_cart_before_the_horse/#comment-16361</guid>
		<description>Wow, that's really confusing.  Doesn't Hosford feed into Cleveland and Mt. Tabor into Franklin?  So, some of the Atkinson kids go to Cleveland and some to Franklin?  Or am I completely wrong about this?  

Also, didn't they start a world language program at Franklin?  And if that's the case, wouldn't we want all the kids in the immersion programs to feed into Franklin and not the slightly-more-overcrowded Cleveland?

We have the opposite issue in NE where Beaumont is the only middle school, but with only one remaining feeder and competition from nearby DaVinci.  So, Beaumont is struggling to fill its building while all the other schools in the Grant cluster are packed full.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, that&#8217;s really confusing.  Doesn&#8217;t Hosford feed into Cleveland and Mt. Tabor into Franklin?  So, some of the Atkinson kids go to Cleveland and some to Franklin?  Or am I completely wrong about this?  </p>
<p>Also, didn&#8217;t they start a world language program at Franklin?  And if that&#8217;s the case, wouldn&#8217;t we want all the kids in the immersion programs to feed into Franklin and not the slightly-more-overcrowded Cleveland?</p>
<p>We have the opposite issue in NE where Beaumont is the only middle school, but with only one remaining feeder and competition from nearby DaVinci.  So, Beaumont is struggling to fill its building while all the other schools in the Grant cluster are packed full.</p>
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